These are not young and rather jumpy reservists but highly trained members of a special forces unit. Furhtermore, their ‘domestic’ role didn’t start till quite a few years after that, making a deployment in London somewhat nonsensical. This doesn’t mean that they’re all bad by any stretch, but it is a cause for concern. Much of the information about the SAS is highly classified, and the unit is not commented on by either the British government nor the Ministry of Defence due to the secrecy and sensitivity of its operations.[10][11][12]. January 25, 2007 10:20 PM. While I agree that the British police completely screwed up the Menezes shooting, I’m not at all convinced the SAS can do better. In times of war, such as the 2003 invasion of Iraq, it's not uncommon for two squadrons to be deployed. Barracks ban claim angers SAS hero. [35] They have also taken part in operations in the Aden Emergency,[36] Northern Ireland,[37] and Gambia. With regards to Menezes, my understanding was that communication was the biggest flaw in the system. Maybe somebody in the UK will start keeping a website tracking how many people the SAS kill, versus the police, versus terrorists. However as with all hindsight judgment post facto is easy as is betting on a race after it is run. bob • I assume it’s indicative of an intention to use them in preference to the police for something or other, but it’s not as though it was their location preventing them being used before. Why not have this force being provided by a specialist group that knows when NOT to fire their weapons, rather than in the hands of the Police who are so overstretched, underpayed, and under-trained that I wouldn’t want to be in the line of fire or anywhere near for that matter. The result of the initial inquest was a majoriy vote for “lawfull killing” and the subsiquent ECJ action handed down a result that the three PIRA members had indeed been engaged in an act of trerorisum and unanimously rejected the aplicants claims for damages and costs. Terrorists can use more than just the one method to kill people. I suspect the actual news-content is near zero. They will have a key role in the security planning for the London Olympics in 2012 and a team based in London full time prior to the event rather than simply being placed immediately before it makes a lot of sense. One of the three was a raid on the homes of suspects, the other two were sieges. January 25, 2007 6:26 PM. Anyway, as a Brit, I’d trust the SAS with a gun over a Plod any day. Next time will probably be completely different. SAS units served during the Gulf War (1990-91) where they were assigned to hunt down and disarm mobile missile units. Why the SundayTimes felt this necessary now is the interesting question. January 30, 2007 11:39 AM, “Commander William Adama: There’s a reason you separate military and the police. Andrew • With regards Gib I was actually in the area on excercise when it happened so I had some real interest in it. They may be TA but they work very closely with 22. [28] Upon arrival in Malaya, it came under the command of "Mad Mike"[29] Mike Calvert who was forming a new unit called the Malayan Scouts (SAS). [103] Candidates then march cross-country against the clock, increasing the distance covered each day; this culminates in an endurance test known as the Endurance, in which candidates march 40 miles (64 km) with full equipment before climbing up and down the mountain Pen y Fan (886 m; 2,907 ft) in 20 hours. they are not there to do policework but to provide specialist support and planning just as army bomb disposal among others has done for years highly effectively. Billy • On 30 September 2000, the 22nd Special Air Service Regimen conducted the opening ceremony for … History. Adam Somethingorother • Acutually the prefered weapon of the SAS for close quarter battle is the MP5, exactly the same weapon used by the Met. Not only did they train the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan but also sent them to be trained in Pakistan, Oman and even parts of the UK. January 25, 2007 5:51 PM. Alex • Data Is a Toxic Asset, So Why Not Throw It Out? [100] By the end of this phase, candidates must then be able to run 4 miles (6.4 km) in 30 minutes or less and swim 2 miles (3.2 km) in 90 minutes or less. July 14, 2007 12:07 PM. If you have clear targets (and I mean in the sense of something to shoot at) as you do in a siege situation, send them in. Hi Bruce. 3 The SAS have a semi-mythical reputation among the British people. The dramatic end to the six-day siege as the SAS go in The dramatic end of the siege was carried live on television news, with the now familiar black-clad figures lobbing stun grenades into the building, and disappearing … January 26, 2007 10:04 AM, Nobody want’s them around, until the s**t hits the fan, and then the monday-morning quarterbacks (goalies?) SAS(R) comprises: 21st Special Air Service Regiment (21 SAS(R)) HQ Squadron based at the Duke Of York Barracks in London The difference will be that the next Jean Charles will have two rounds in his body and one in his head, as opposed to the 8 or so in the head that Jean Charles got from the Met. January 25, 2007 6:47 PM. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm As to the first part, hang out in a few pubs in Hereford and you’ll soon learn that the “regiment” are just as good/bad as any other squaddy. With them about the safest place to stand was directly in front of the target. The question is how likely is it there will be a situation in London where their highly trained specialist skills will be useful and where their arriving in 30 minutes is soon enough, but arriving in three hours is not. January 25, 2007 8:27 PM, @avery: “Steve has a point about the nature of some military unit’s surveillance skills being different (and for some purposes superior to that of the police)”. And the answer is that in 99.9% of the “probable future scenarios” they will be of no use what so ever. You tell the SAS what to do, and then step back (way back) and watch them do it — their way. SAS Barrack Credenhill (Google Maps). This concession to Army facilities was due to a closer working relationship in future major incidents. The Canadian Special Air Service Company was formed in 1947, being disbanded in 1949. In a repeat of the de Menezes incident, I really don’t think the SAS could have been summoned in the time it took de Menezes to walk to the tube station, even if they were based in London. October 22, 2009 11:28 AM. Meanwhile, the Metro Police are becoming more militant, trying to become the uberpolizei. What makes you think the de Menezes shooting was not carried by the SAS? British special forces are now stationed in London:. The Metropolitan Police had trapped a PIRA unit; it surrendered when it heard on the BBC that the SAS were being sent in. Finally the police have little experience of armed reconaissance/undercover work. Being out in public made it a little tricky to, erm, deal with him. And that means they can’t be on patrol with the police. I think people have been watching too many seasons of 24. In “extreme situations”, the only difference they could possibly make is they’ll get there sooner. David Mery • After the shooting, the police leaked stories that Jean Charles de Menezes was wearing a bulky jacket (implying an explosive belt), jumped the barrier at the tube station and refused to heed a police warning. [112] Its ceremonial No 1 dress uniform is distinguished by a light-blue stripe on the trousers. Neither is it likely that they will be used willy-nilly for policing-type functions. Either their on patrol with the cops, in which case they’re too thinly dispersed to make much difference, or they’re concentrated in “extreme action” groups and have to deal with all those consequences. They do however understand the big slap when it happens,. Within a few seconds all three of the PIRA team where dead or dying of multiple gunshot wounds (mainly to the body). Fill in the blank: the name of this blog is Schneier on ___________ (required): Allowed HTML January 25, 2007 8:25 PM, The army, though not the SAS, was involved in the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. In order to get into the SAS you have to have at least had major experience in another regiment,and at a level that exemplifies your abilities. I'm a fellow and lecturer at Harvard's Kennedy School, a board member of EFF, and the Chief of Security Architecture at Inrupt, Inc. And also most of the time we would never know if the situation would arise where the SAS would be called in as it would be over so quickly the media would have no idea as they learned that media attention affected them after the Iranian embassy hostage situation. Outward-bound flights are pleasant, fast and a great opportunity for you to get some work done, or for you to have a nice moment for yourself or with your family before you land. Brandioch Conner • Perhaps the SAS will do a bit better in this respect, they may even have communications equipment that works on the underground. A fair proportion of pistol shooters soon get into discussions of things like killing power (and remember this is in the context of target shooting clubs). This gets them a good reputation among the British people, so this move has aspects of security theatre to it. Besides, the British Army’s ROE for urban warfare have been honed by thirty years of active counter-insurgency operations in Northern Ireland; we’ve had plenty of time to learn the hard way. January 28, 2007 1:40 AM. [61] On its return from Malaya, the C (Rhodesian) Squadron formed the basis for creation of the Rhodesian Special Air Service in 1961. [3][27], In 1950, a 21 SAS squadron was raised to fight in the Korean War. I strongly suspect that had he been identified inside the embassy he’d be dead. So much so that at least two ended up paying substantial damages. January 25, 2007 3:53 PM. He was not very happy about the “pub/canteen mentality” exhibited by the others on the course and confided as much to the course examiner during the course. [1][14] It was conceived as a commando force to operate behind enemy lines in the North African Campaign[15] and initially consisted of five officers and 60 other ranks. January 26, 2007 5:55 AM. 2 They’re not exactly going to be much use a visible deterrent as the SAS is notoriously touchy about secrecy. Please stop spreading ignorance. January 25, 2007 5:17 PM. I used to be an active target shooter (haven’t had the time in recent years). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3973261.stm, http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0, http://www.guardian.co.uk/menezes/story/0, http://gizmonaut.net/blog/uk/no_war_on_terror_in_uk_but_send_the_sas_to_london.html, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm, http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1548808,00.html, https://michelf.ca/projects/php-markdown/extra/, ← Dogbert's Password Recovery Service for Morons, DHS Mandates Federal Agencies to Run Vulnerability Disclosure Policy. 4 Their utility is in raids and extractions. February 16, 2008 11:54 PM. [17] Its second mission was a major success. Don’t send them to ‘neutralize’ anyone unless you’re comfortable with brains on pavement. Scrumpy • The fact that it was clearly stated at the time that it was police. The same calculations when using the correct information showed that it would be more than possible. I suspect that the Iranian embassy siege couldn’t have been ended in the same way by police, because of the difference in tactical training, and because the Met police (at least at the time, perhaps not so much now since Operation Kratos and the so-called “shoot to kill” policy) would not enter the building with the intention of unhesitatingly killing all the bad guys. We’ve got it now and will use it. “Military expertise” is a totally bogus argument. Also CO19 and most other police CT units were originally trained by the SAS personally in counter-terrorism. Let me tell you, the uk met police did not kill him it was the SAS. Just like any bunch of blokes you’ve smarter ones and thicker ones but they’re still people who choose the Army as an occupation. CS1 maint: bot: original URL status unknown (, 7 Troop by Andy Mcnab and SAS Heroes by Pete Scholey, Janes International Defence Review, May 2014, page 4. The 22nd Special Air Service Regiment, which is part of the regular army, gained fame and recognition worldwide after its televised rescue of all but two of the hostages held during the 1980 Iranian Embassy siege. [34] The SAS counter terrorist wing famously took part in a hostage rescue operation during the Iranian Embassy Siege in London. “Stop I am an armed police officer and I will shoot…”. [51][52][53], In recent years SAS officers have risen to senior appointments in the British Army and Armed Forces. The shooting itself had all the hallmarks of an SAS operation: Cold blooded execution of a man, employing the steely ability to hold down a man for quite a period of time while a colleague repeatedly shoots the subject in the head, only inches from the restraining officer. They are not in london to perform a policing duty, but are there to do what some might say to be the ‘impossible’ which a CO19 may not be able to perform. SAS is the leader in analytics. After three months of training in Britain, it was informed that the squadron would no longer be required in Korea and so it instead volunteered to fight in the Malayan Emergency. It was, almost exclusively, pistol shooters (as opposed to rifle shooters) that I used to spot these tendencies in. who carried out the raids on the failed bombers of 21st july they not the sas. The situation started to escalate in that one of the PIRA team was seen to be doing something in the boot of the car (an assumption was made that it was bomb arming) and a command decision was made to remove the threat by the Deputy Commissioner of Gibralter Police, who signed the document handing the power of arrest over to the military. 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